Curse

impression · Dec 18, 2006, 05:36 PM // 17:36

I’ am mainly a PvE kind of guy, although a play PvP regularly. So, the following its mainly directed to the PvE aspect of the game.

First of all I will start by making a short explaining of what I mean by "Young people" factor.
"Young People" factor started to be noticed a few years back because of the fact that the online games have gone "mainstream" and the Internet become very accessible and easy to use. The "Young People" started playing online games but because of their natural immaturity and lack of experience in gaming in general they start to complain about it being "difficult" or simple stopped playing it altogether. But, since this new wave of new players was allot bigger than the original online gamers community, mainly hardcore players / Techno freaks that like challenges, the games companies started making the games more accessible for them. This off curse translates in "easy" games with no real challenges where players get everything effortless, an "I WIN" button like policy. Off curse, experience players get bored pretty fast and frustrated with the games and start quitting or searching challenges somewhere else.
Although this looked like a good policy and have brought allot of profits for the gaming companies, this policy its proving to be disastrous at long term. Without the "hardcore" players to bring the young masses to the game and, the current players getting mature in their gaming and starting to realise that the game its not a challenge any more are "killing" some games.
Some companies understand that they where facing a real problem and started to implement some features to keep the "experienced" players and "young people" happy like: "Pro" mods, separation of players by "rank", some type of difficulty setting (similar in concept with the ones in single player games: easy, normal, hard), etc.

What I want to know is if you think that GW is suffering from the "Young people" factor and what impact it will have at long/medium term in the game.

To start the discussion here is my view:

I started to play GW a long time ago with "Prophecies". I enjoyed allot the game so much that I had 6 characters (One for each profession at that time) spread in two accounts. Even when I was getting my 6 character through the game I was enjoying it at it was my first time in the game. Changeling missions, allot of "wilderness" to explore and the eternal quest for the perfect item. Then "Factions" come out, it still was changeling but I was already a bit bored with it when playing my second char through the game. Most of my time playing "Factions" was spend in the elite missions but, even them become boring after a while. I stopped playing GW and gone play another game from the competition thinking that probably I needed a break from so much GW

.

Then "Night Fall" was released. I started to play it and one week later I had completed it with my Paragon with "Protector" and "100% Discovered" titles. And this was only done with only Henchmen/Heroes since I had little time to play each day and didn’t want to waste time trying to get a group. Got Masters reward in almost every mission at first attempt ever at them. And the suprisse about it is that I consider my self has a average player althoug I play GW for so long.
Since the middle of game I already had good green/gold weapons for me and my Heroes (All farmed by me), when I finished the game there wasn’t much or better nothing to do. I then created a Dervish character but got bored pretty fast with him when playing NF, maybe because of the nothing to do at the end factor. I end taking the Dervish back to Tyria and playing trough that campaign instead.
But then DoA was released. I got in a few groups with my Paragon (my only char that finished NF) but, since most of the people don't like Paragons in their groups I had to run my Priest trough NF to be able to get in DoA groups more easily (a few hours to run all the NF). The only thing that makes me keep playing NF is DoA for now. Once I beat it one or two times it will become boring and I will end going back to Tyria or just taking another break from GW. DoA as the other elites missions are little rewarding for me, and I only do them for the challenge and, once the challenge of it is gone there is no point in keep playing them.

Making the story short, the GW game has become more and more "boring" and with little challenges at each expansion. Easy missions, small areas to explore and easily accessible, perfect weapons for every one effortless etc. ANet needs to look back to the beginning and bring the fun back to the PvE aspect of the game since PvE characters are pretty much out of the competitive PvP now.

Flame away but keep on topic please.

Have fun,
impressiun

PS: Before any one starts complaining that there are "Older people" that are worst that the "Young people", let me say that imature/skillless players are also included in the "Young people" group.

-- Report for any gramar mistakes --

Kuja · Dec 18, 2006, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Sure it is affecting the community, the game was a much nicer place right after it came out...but you deal with it and turn off local chat or move on.

As for difficulty...well that's what PvP is for, and if you're not ranked number 1 I think there's room for improving your skills, but yea what you said is true for PvE but also with many other games in general. As long as Anet doesn't directly cater to the "young" as you call them I think we are as fine as we will be in terms of engaging content.

Kaane · Dec 18, 2006, 05:44 PM // 17:44

I think a lot of it is you've simply gotten better at the game.

Seriously, go back to the Prophecies missions & explorable areas. They are stupidly easy.

Has GW been dumbed down, made easier? Nah. I don't think so. Have you gotten significantly better at the game? Yes.

maxpower · Dec 18, 2006, 05:53 PM // 17:53

i haven't had a penis/swastika/boob drawer in my party since the early days of chapter one

Antheus · Dec 18, 2006, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

.... most of the people don't like Paragons in their groups I had to run my Priest trough NF to be able to get in DoA ....

Take your PRIEST out of here!!!!11111 We don' like 'em hillbillies here.

That said...

You state that you find challenge in DoA, and that once you do it twice over, it'll get boring.

This alone describes your skill level better than anything. So, no, NF isn't too easy. You're too good.

Silentt · Dec 18, 2006, 06:08 PM // 18:08

If u want a challenge of sorts try playing pvp

Alya · Dec 18, 2006, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Erm, are you aware that in the first week of Nightfall the AI was seriously different from what it is now? That it actually allowed many people, like you, to breeze through the game on the first try, but when the AI got changed later, the same people started experiencing serious difficulties with beating again the same missions, through which they breezed a few days earlier?

As I said, this AI was changed after a week or so, but by that time you apparently had completed the game.

Perhaps you must consider this factor as well in your arguments. And possibly even reconsider your conclusions...

==
P.S. Corrected some glaring mistakes -- seriosly need some sleep here...

Yanman.be · Dec 18, 2006, 06:25 PM // 18:25

I think you can make GW "young peoplish" if you want to.

For instance, get a run to droknar, buy max armour, cap elites etc., then start the game again.

I've done all my CH1 missions on my ele monk and ranger in presearing armour. It's a challenge, but I have done it.

unienaule · Dec 18, 2006, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alya

Erm, are you aware that in the first week of Nightfall the AI was seriously different from what it was now? That it actually allowed many people, like you, to breeze through the game on the first try, but when it got changed later, the same people started experiencing serious difficulties with beating again the same missions which they breezed through a few days earlier?

As I said, this AI has been changed after a week or so, when you apparently completed the game.

Perhaps you must consider this factor as well in your arguments. And possibly even reconsider your conclusions...

By "the AI was different," he means, it was set to target the HIGHEST AL party member in your group. So, the first week of Nightfall was stupidly easy, because the how2beet was this: Have a warrior run in and use whatever defensive crap you want and have a couple monks heal him. Everyone else can pick their noses if they want to because they're not going to get hit. Even if you didn't do that on purpose, there's a huge difference between AI going after monks (now) and going after tanks (then). So yeah, Nightfall was really easy to beat, and I beat it in 2 days. Could I do that again? Maybe, but probably not, and it would be harder.

Cjlr · Dec 18, 2006, 06:38 PM // 18:38

What you call "young people" I would call "casual people". It's not a matter of age, or anything so silly as that. It's the fact that hardcore gamers are now the minority - by a long shot. How many people do you know who play video games? Probably a lot. How many do you know who watch the previews, read reviews, visit forums, and maybe do a little modding on the side? Probably not as many. If Johnny Powergamer buys one copy, it's Bob Casual and his friends who buy the other ten. It doesn't make sense to limit you market - if every game was too hard for most people, they wouldn't buy them. It's that simple. For that matter, easier games mean that one will spend less time on each, and presumably one will buy more as a consequence.

GW, as an example, hasn't really changed much. Factions and Nightfall were no harder than Prophecies and no easier. YOU, on the other hand, are likely a much better player than you were back in the dim, misty past of 2005.

It's a trend that as a medium proliferates, its accessability widens, and as a result those looking for a more deep, intense, consummate, transcendent experience are going to have to look harder. If you were a music afficionado, would you hear anything worth listening to on your local pop radio? If you were a movie sophisticate, would you expect to see art films at the cineplex? Would a culinary connoisseur enjoy a meal from a fast food joint? Sure, it's possible, but mightn't there also be a little something missing? Our precious video games are probably doomed to the same fate.

Clawdius_Talonious · Dec 18, 2006, 07:24 PM // 19:24

If you're asking if Guild Wars is catering to the crowd that wants accessiblity, then by all means the answer is yes! If you think that they don't have content that is challenging to the most hardcore Guild Wars fanatic, then simply step into the Domain of Anguish and prepare to get owned by throngs of NPCs like a newbie

Guild Wars is built for the casual gamer, Heroes suppliment this strategy by allowing people who don't know how long they'll be able to play or how long they may have to AFK to play the game with reasonably skilled teamates (even if they are AI).

However there are things that keep the hard-core Guild Wars player going as well, I've logged over 3800 hours in the last 19 months, and I still don't have the KOABD title, and PKM is a long way off indeed. I could strive for these things, but to me it's much more enjoyable to help those guildmates that require assitance, than it is to toil away for an hour to get that next .1% of my cartography title etc.

There is also a strong PVP focus that many people overlook when thinking about Guild Wars, while there is a lot of PVE content to sate the players demands, PVP is a large portion of the game and by no means something to overlook.

If I were to make a stab in the dark I would venture to guess that the PVP only editions of the various titles have likely sold 100,000+ copies apiece. There are many people who love Guild Wars not for the wonderful graphics or compelling storyline. Those people are probably enjoying the strategic aspects and the teamwork required to ascend to the highest tiers of the Guild Wars PVP elite. I know that if they had had a PVP only title when the game first released, all of the guildmates K O S lost due to their hating the PVE aspect of the game would've had their UAS (unlock all skills) request granted. However until I am able to submit this form in triplicate and reserve the wayback machine, I will be unable to correct the timeline to what I think it ought to be (which is a shame, really). [/rant]

LifeInfusion · Dec 18, 2006, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by unienaule

Could I do that again? Maybe, but probably not, and it would be harder.

Um really, you probably could. I just did most of Nightfall on my necro over the weekend with PUG and hench.

It really depends on what class you play (if you play monk, of course it takes 2 days but not if you play an unwanted class) and how much experience (not XP, player "skill") you have had playing G.W.

Lord Ra · Dec 18, 2006, 08:54 PM // 20:54

I got bored with factions after the first time through, still went threw it anyways with my chars, then got bored with NF after the second time through and have been bringing toons up just to cap skills and such. Neither campain is fun to me. I find myself doing tyria over and over instead, wondernig why i like it so much more despite it being so easy. The solution is actually pretty simple, its the fact its open. Tyria your not bound to any quest line, their is only 2 missions you have to beat to gain access to other areas (sanctum and thunderhead) and the game is just wide open. Factions was very closed off, making it linear and hence very boring. it feels like playing a single player rpg, get done once then your bored outta your mind. I am honestly amazed that after all the whining about factions being so closed off, and requiring the farming of faction, that Anet would then make the next chapter the same. Granted they finally took the grinding of sunspear points out, it should have never been their to being with. Also they give the apperance of being open, since towns are not blocked off, but all the missions are. So great instead of like factions where you couldn't get into the town, now you can but you can't do anything. This is also the same reason why people generaly enjoy fow/underworld more than elite missions. They are OPEN. want to go do smites? sure. want to go do forgemaster? done. How about the burning forest, or chaos plains? sure you can go to them and have fun. How about going to go play with wurms? oh no wait i have to beat 2/3 of the game first give me a couple hours. PvE'rs dont want to be held around and constrained, this is why many people still consider prophesies the best chapter, the plain and simple fact that its open. I dont know if the the constant whining from the "young people" about running services or anything like that is the reason behind this closed-offness, but it is ruining the game fast.

Also please think before you say: thats what pvp is for. Pvp and PvE are completly different, many people who enjoy pve do not like pvp at all, and would quit the game before playing it. PvE and PvP need to stay seperated, its for the best.

So to sum it up, i think the "young people" complaints about it being too easy are hurting the game, but its more of anet locking us into doing these mindless back and forth quests (ok so factions and nf have parts where you can choose a path, but in the end its the same thing just different mobs in different areas) thats really killing the enjoyment. No one wants to be told exactly what to do in a game like this, it takes the fun out of it. I rather explore than be stuck chasing kormir's useless ass around. thats whats really killing the game and making it boring. (that and the lack of endgame content for the casual player).

Some Guru Named Kai · Dec 18, 2006, 09:27 PM // 21:27

The thing is, the "young people factor" keeps the game alive. Without it, the companies won't be able to reek in enough income to support the game. Seeing as the "young people factor" makes up the majority of the population. (If it didn't we won't be having people make these kind of rants

) So before people continue to rant, let's start looking at the glass half full... Guild Wars is here and everyone's here to play.

@ the OP: Your "PS" statement pretty much lost all creditability to whatever you had to say. By making such stereotype, this is just another young person bashing. There's nothing factual about that.

valtonray · Dec 18, 2006, 09:40 PM // 21:40

of course the younger generation of gamers is having a negliable impact on the gaming community and the games are seemingly becoming easier... but you can't blame everything on them, i've been gaming for about 17 years, at this point there aren't many new challenges i can't quickly figure out a way to overcome thats due to experience not the fact that the games have gotten easier. also we can thank they younger gereration for the glorious graphics we have because to them state of the art graphics are a necessity, those of us who grew up in the 8 and 16 bit era know that a game doesn't have to be pretty to be enjoyable. i think back to games like chrono trigger and the orginal suikoden, defcon, rainbow six.... the early metriod and castlevania games.... hell i remember all kinds of favorite games growing up that graphically sucked. either way though the younger gamers are going to effec the market as much as the older gamers after all not many 15 year old kids can afford to buy top shelf gaming computers. so enjoy the game if it gets to easy then find a way to add challenge or move on.

Domino · Dec 18, 2006, 09:48 PM // 21:48

turn your local chat off and quit whining.

Cjlr · Dec 18, 2006, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by valtonray

i think back to games like chrono trigger and the orginal suikoden, defcon, rainbow six.... the early metriod and castlevania games.... hell i remember all kinds of favorite games growing up that graphically sucked.

Oh, please. They were as good as possible at the time and you know it.

Angelica · Dec 18, 2006, 11:41 PM // 23:41

I'm an "older" casual player that find young people; fourteen and over, very nice and helpful.

Guardian of the Light · Dec 18, 2006, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cjlr

What you call "young people" I would call "casual people". It's not a matter of age, or anything so silly as that. It's the fact that hardcore gamers are now the minority - by a long shot. How many people do you know who play video games? Probably a lot. How many do you know who watch the previews, read reviews, visit forums, and maybe do a little modding on the side? Probably not as many. If Johnny Powergamer buys one copy, it's Bob Casual and his friends who buy the other ten. It doesn't make sense to limit you market - if every game was too hard for most people, they wouldn't buy them. It's that simple. For that matter, easier games mean that one will spend less time on each, and presumably one will buy more as a consequence.

GW, as an example, hasn't really changed much. Factions and Nightfall were no harder than Prophecies and no easier. YOU, on the other hand, are likely a much better player than you were back in the dim, misty past of 2005.

It's a trend that as a medium proliferates, its accessability widens, and as a result those looking for a more deep, intense, consummate, transcendent experience are going to have to look harder. If you were a music afficionado, would you hear anything worth listening to on your local pop radio? If you were a movie sophisticate, would you expect to see art films at the cineplex? Would a culinary connoisseur enjoy a meal from a fast food joint? Sure, it's possible, but mightn't there also be a little something missing? Our precious video games are probably doomed to the same fate.

QFT!

I hate it when people judge people by age.

The Casual gamer outnumbers the hardcore gamers and Anet needs to keep the casual gamer happy and buying more and more chapters.

Now don't judge people by their age again or else your bound for trouble.

arcanemacabre · Dec 18, 2006, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Well, I feel better. Because I consider myself a casual gamer, I've just been called 'young'. Nice! Time to dye my grey hair and act my gamer age, huh?